Tuesday, 2 September 2014

Great Crusade - What can't we use?

Hey all

I am here today to have a quick look at the options that may be available in Heresy but are not in the Great Crusade. I build all my lists with the thought 'Great Crusade (GC) era is where I wanna be', there is more variety of opponent and also more freedom for the stories I want to tell. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) both Black Library and Forge World have filled in so many blanks from the GC that it takes away a lot of freedom when creating consistent and fluffy stories and army lists.



My least favourite phrase in the world is currently along the lines of 'XXXXXX started seeing service in the later years of the Great Crusade'....lets take a look at some of the options (in no particular order) that may not have been around for long before Horus' treachery, then we can all discuss below (with evidence) when certain options became available and what we are going to allow in our campaigns.

MKIV armour - at the time of heresy, this was the newest form of power armour apparently coming into service in the closing decades of the GC.
Terminator Armour
Sicaran
Sicaran Venator
Spartan
Fellblade
Fellglaive
Typhon - Spartan chassis
Cerberus - Spartan chassis
Storm Eagle
Fire Raptor - Storm Eagle chassis
Thunderhawk
Land Raider Achilles
Scorpius Whirlwind



As you can see that is a lot of options that potentially dont make the cut. So lets discuss them? Which of the above do you think we should AVOID using if we are setting our games in the Great Crusade? Or do you think we should say 'Fuck it! Those are my toys and I will play with them however I want!!!!' - (advice I got from someone at Forge World).

Please comment below. I, personally, think if it is the Great Crusade list then it is fair game in limited numbers - everything would have had field testing etc.

Khall Sithis


26 comments:

  1. From all of the Horus Heresy novels I've read, Mark IV, terminator and thunderhawks were definitely around before Istvan. Not sure of the others.

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    1. Agreed, but I am not sure they were around much before Ullanor...

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  2. Its hard to say "i am not gonna use termies or thunderhawks", my Space Wolves often take part in crusade battles, and they have sicaran's and termies. at the end of the day, ur army looks 30k, so i say fuck it!!! :)

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    1. Terminators were prototyping in the last few decades of GC. I remember reading about Ultramarines coming up against some Word Bearer Cataphractii on Calth and being like 'we havent even got Terminator armour yet!' Will need to find it lol.

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    2. I must say, I agree though. It should all be available!

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  3. As the dates for each bit of tech being put into general circulation are such a grey area I say base your army in as much fluff as possible. For instance army's like the Iron Hands, Dark Angels and Luna Wolves had access to a lot of stuff prior to it's main release where as legions like the world eaters and white scars were generally slow to get or use newer toys.

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  4. You have to remember that most forces seemed to have most things, even in small numbers....eg the keshig for scars, fire drakes etc so I think most forces would have had most pieces of equipement, but it would have been based on a company by company basis,eg the loyal iron warriors company from extermination probably had the latest and greatest toys because they rearmed at a forgeworld regularily whereas a company on the fringes may not...

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    1. We are setting our Great Crusade campaigns around 70 years before the Heresy. What do feel wouldn't be available at all?

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    2. Personally I would say the below wasn't available:
      Terminator Armour (only cataphracti allowed and maybe limit numbers)
      Sicaran Venator
      Cerberus - Spartan chassis
      Fire raptor
      Land Raider Achilles (only for admec)
      Scorpius Whirlwind

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    3. But that's just me :-) its your campaign after all :-)

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    4. If you don't have Venators or Fire Raptors then does that mean no Sicarans and Storm Eagles? And maybe no Spartans/Typhon too!!

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  5. I agree with the last point that there would be field testing so you should be able to use them in limited numbers. Only in units that we know for sure are not around until the heresy like the Gal Vorbak and the Kakophoni should not be used.

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  6. Happy to include all Terminators at this period but in limited no's (field testing etc).
    Sicarans a bit later.
    No Gal Vorbak.
    No uber Lorgar.
    No Venator.
    Fire Raptors I have no idea.

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    1. If you have Storm Eagles don't you need Fire Raptors too? They are both said to be later Great Crusade. Can't say no to 1 and not the other!

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    2. It would be the same as Sicarans and Venators. Main chassis would be out first, second one later. Same with Land Raiders > Crusaders and Redeemers etc.

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  7. For a really early Great Crusade army, I'd be tempted to do the entire army in only mk2 armour (there are still quite a few variant bits for mk2 now) with only deimos rhinos and predators, and proteus land raiders. Lots of volkite weapons. And Horus as the only Primarch available!

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    1. Yeah, if we went that early I 100% agree :)

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  8. Just worth noting that 70years early is quite early on considering the crusade as a whole was only a couple of hundred years

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    1. Aye but all Primarch's except Corax and Alpharius had been found at this point so it's not TOO early :)

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  9. I have to say, I am a total fluff nazi, Fortunately I play Sons of Horus and they had everything because the mechanicum wanted to be buddy buddy with Horus, so they got the latest and greatest. However I will give you my feedback on what I have read and consider to be "truth".

    MKIV and Cataphractii were in use during the crusades, Horus rising makes mention of Rassek's Terminators being used on 63-19 to pacify the rebels in the caves, and they do say that it was fairly new but had been in service. However MKIV is definitely not the newest, some Death Guard were wearing prototype MKVI (Corvus) at Istvaan.

    Sicaran - Forgeworld makes specific mention that it was in use during the crusade, infact calling it one of the most powerful tanks available to marines during the crusade. I think this could also justify the venator pattern. Loyalists did not get any new Sicaran pattern tanks after Horus split, because the Fabricator General that left with Horus, took the STC's for Sicaran Pattern.

    Spartan -- Definitely available, though they mention it was considerably more costly in materials to build than a normal landraider, so not nearly as prevalant.

    Fellblade -- Definitely available, makes mention in the fluff entry "in the decades leading up to the heresy"... Decades is a long time.

    Fellglaive -- Definitely available, On the same chassis as a Spartan and using Volkite Technology. Volkite was replaced during the latter half of the crusade because it was hard to maintain, specific mention of Iron Hands and Salamanders being able to maintain the "archaic weaponry"

    Typhon -- Definitely available, specific mention that Death Guard had an "inordinate amount of Typhons and Fellblades" at one point in their fluff from book 1 I believe. Typhon was also commissioned by Perturabo during the crusades as a siege weapon.

    Cerberus -- On the Spartan chassis, reason to believe it would have been available. This one I do not have any "evidence" on.

    Storm Eagle -- Definitely in use, mentioned a couple times in HH Books as one of the main transports for Legion troops along with the Storm Bird and Thunderhawks.

    Fire Raptor -- Forgeworld fluff mentions "Known to have it's origins in the imperium's dim and distant past", and reasoning that it is just an up-gunned Storm Eagle, I would say it was in use, probably not as heavily used as a Storm Eagle, but still definitely there.

    Thunderhawk -- Well yeah... one of the main transports used for Legions during the heresy alongside the storm eagle and storm bird.

    Landraider Achilles -- One of the dreaded "In the closing years of the great crusade" but again Years is a good amount of time, this could be well before Horus turned, I believe Ullanor was only a couple years before the heresy.

    Scorpius -- Mentioned as being built during "The First Inter-Legion Civil War" which would lead me to believe that was something before The Heresy, as they do not say "During The Horus Heresy".


    There's my .02 on all of this, again my word is not law, just things that I have read and similar discussions have been had in my group over the past couple years as we build out our own legions.

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    1. Good list. Great Crusade went from 798 to 005. As stated is Massacres timeline the Triumph at Ullanor was 000. I cannot find an exact date for this conflict start though so I am presuming 10 years max. Mk4 came into use just before / during Ullanor so circa 984-990 about the time Isstvan was first brought into compliance by the Raven Guard.
      63-19 is after Ullanor, so Terminators and Mk4 were in use regularly then.
      Death Guard wearing prototype mk6 - I seem to remember hearing this so would be good if you have a source for this :)
      Thunderhawks were in use at Shrike but they were definitely a later crusade thing as I remember many mentions of "this chassis is just for necessity as a stop-gap transport" so was very new at Shrike.
      Regarding Sicarans - the destruction of Olympia was 004 so he would have sided with Horus any time around here. Which means the Sicaran design was around before then and only entered service in in late m30-early m31.
      The Scorpius does tickle an interest in me following the "first Legion civil war" comment. Might contact FW for that.
      Cheers for your time Tony

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    2. I have had a few of these confirmed by Forge World:
      MKIV - came into service after the Great Crusade but before the Horus Heresy. Therefore after Ullanor.

      Sicarans, Venators and Scorpius' all became available during the last 2 decades of the Great Crusade.

      I can't rememember which Space Wolf story it was but I distinctly remember them saying it was an effort to bring down material costs to phase out the Storm Bird with the Thunderhawk.

      I will be doing a follow up post with all my up to date findings. If Alan Bligh is there this weekend I will ask him :)

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    3. Drake - I know the cover of Galaxy in Flames clearly shows a DG Wearing at least a Corvus helmet and studded left shoulder. I assume it would have been in field testing during this time.

      Khall - I do remember the stuff about the Thunderhawk as well, It was used as a cheaper alternative to the Stormbird, and an Ultra made comment that it was a "Stop-gap" and that the imperium would no doubt build something better or revert to the more reliable Stormbird.

      Hope you're able to get some more answers from Bligh. I completely understand wanting to stick as true to the timeline as possible. I was doing the same when originally building Luna Wolves, I made the transition only because FW was releasing everything for SoH and I did not want to avoid the awesome models or have to get rid of some of the great detail on things like Justaerin etc.

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    4. Yeah. The covers have been referenced as a problem and not always correct (Great unclean one on flight of Eisenstein, wrong armour colour on false gods, Mk7 helm on Legion). I don't doubt they wouldn't have a few suits or any other Legions either. Love me a Beaky' marine!

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  10. Dang! Can't edit, Sorry, Glaive on the same chassis as Fellblade*

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