Thursday 12 December 2013

Escalation - Lords of War - Primarches

Hey all

Time for a Great Crusade and Horus Heresy discussion. As I am sure you are all aware, in the 41st millenium, the primarches are all suffering from one of the 3 D's; Dead, Disappeared or Daemon, which is a real shame because they are - lets face it! - the best characters that GW has ever written. Why are the Horus Heresy books so popular? Because everyone wants their very own 10ft, daddy issues sufferer! Its why I play! So I am here to discuss a hot topic with/at you all. Audience participation is a must for this one folks...

Issue:
Horus Heresy, by Forge World, uses the Warhammer 40k ruleset. Now this wasn't a problem until GW released the Escalation supplement, bringing Lords of War to the table for all armies. Now I am not going to hate on escalation, as it actually looks pretty cool and will be great having more 'realistic' battles, but we do need to have a look at how it affects what we are doing here. We are not Win At All Costs players. We play for fun, to re-enact stories and write our own. These are the reasons we have consciously chosen 30k era over 40k era. So here is the issue; primarches are Lords of War. If everyone and their dog can now take Lords of War (that are far more powerful - I am looking at you revenant titan!) when are primarches going to see the light of day? Am I ever going to take a 500pt primarch over a warhound titan to combat an Eldar Titan? The answer is: I can't. If my opponent has a non-primarch LoW then realistically I can't waste the pts on a primarch (which can be one hit killed by D weapons) as I will need to fill up with heavy weapons to tackle the new bastard! Even in larger games, the primarch becomes a glorious looking target for D weapons and personal reputation; 'I killed a primarch!' For fast and close-combat armies like Emperors Children, Space Wolves and World Eaters you will literally have to go against their Rites of War (I speculate for SWs) to be able to bring a LoW down before it decimates your entire army, so then we are destroying the fluff! Primarches will never see the light of day unless army lists are discussed before games and agreed upon. Boooooring!!



There are a number of ways to 'fix' this 'problem'. Most of them are too controlling: you can't take so-and-so unless <insert game destroying restriction here>. So the idea we are playing around with is simple and goes thusly:
Primarches become HQs, but can still only be used in 2000pt+ games! 
I am sure people will be saying thats unbalanced etc etc. Take a look at it:
Horus - the best of us - is 500pts. He has the ability to rain down an orbital bombardment and has some cool local-buffing rules. In hand to hand he is a beast, he can kill maybe 5 enemies a turn or horribly cripple/destroy a monstrous/gargantuan creature. An Avatar is less than 1/2 his pts and can probably do the same...with buffs an Avatar will actually kill most FW primarches. Why is he not a LoW? Bloodthirsters, Lord of Change, Keeper of Secrets and Nurgle blob are all just as effective and around 1/2 the pts. Swarmlord? Flyrant? 2 Hell-drakes will do more damage than a primarch. None of them have restrictions on using them in a 2000pt game. Remember - Horus is the best...

We want to see battles with Primarches, Titans, Super Heavies AND Gargantuan creatures. Allowing apocalypse death-machines in 2000pt games will destroy fluffy gaming and kill the primarches off all over again...I can't lose them twice lol!

So tell me; where do you stand? What are your opinions? Do we see a decline in primarches and play as-is or do we do something about it and amend a categorisation?

Comment below please!

Khall Sithis

17 comments:

  1. I play 30k too and I must say that the thing I though FW should have done from the start. And I felt like that before Escalation because there are already so many cool LoW choices (love my Fellblade) and if I follow the rules (even if Massacre has changed that a bit) I can't field a primarch and my super heavy. I think I should start asking my gaming group about that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Great idea. Would love to hear some of their thoughts too so please keep us updated?

      Delete
  2. Good topic Khall. I agree with most points but would hate to see a Primarch and a Fellblade with 40 Tactical Marines as a standard list.

    9 Legionaire: Legionaire Sergeant. 150
    9 Legionaire: Legionaire Sergeant. 150

    Primarch Horus Lupercal 500
    Legion Fellblade Super-Heavy Tank: Armoured Ceramite; Space Marine Legion crew (BS4). 565

    1,365 points

    That leaves 600pts of throwing around money. Group-wise we could allow Primarchs in a 2000pt list and only allow an Escalation Lord of War when games are 2500pts or more (which could be fielded with a Primarch) otherwise it will get quite tough to fight against, we then set The Lord of War Choice at 2500pts for all Forces?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I meant 20 Tactical Marines Derp. And Primarchs as HQs in 2000 pt lists, but you are still required to take another HQ.

      Delete
    2. I know Drake, we don't operate standard lists though...that would be unfluffy. Primarchs + LoW in a 2000pt list is very beatable. Primarches are not that tough! Same as any monstrous creature but far more expensive. Making a primarch HQ is the simplest way in my opinion.

      Delete
  3. I guess the term Lord of war has lost it's "meaning" I understand that the high point cost is mayb because ur opponent would be feilding a primarch at roughly the same cost. So I agree we should go with HQ and ignore the lord of war title. I do not have the books with me to confirm ATM but sounds good.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Primarchs NEED to be HQ, for their points they deal next to know damage and certainly don't warrant a lord of war choice. Having them as an HQ option solves all the problems with them and also allows for fluffy gaming. I also think escalation should be ignored for 30k purposes as the rules without it worked perfectly well ( apart from primarchs not being HQ's!)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Agreed, primarchs need to be recategorised!

      Delete
  5. I agree with having Primarchs as a HQ but only for 2000+ battles. That would make the battles more even and also would keep to the fluff

    ReplyDelete
  6. Think the Primarch as HQ choice works but then other LOW would need changing. Think there should be certain limitations on battle types. I think to have some types of LOW as taking up 2 HQ slots then it takes them away where only 1 HQ per 'X' amount of points can be taken. As a novice not sure if this would work but i think it cures the titan vs small army list killers

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why would other LoW need to change? Which ones?

      Delete
  7. Excuse me for n00b question, but... Didn't FW HH FAQ already state that yes, xenos players can take LoW from their Apoc lists but should obey the rule of "2000+ pts only and no more than 25% of the whole army cost"?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hey there! Cool name.

      Where is this FAQ? I can't find the part you are refering to.

      Delete
    2. Yes FW did implement that against Heresy Forces. They have released a list of their LoW's which can be used in regular 40k escalation games too. Thing that Khall and our gaming group is discussing is: Would you take a Primarch as a LoW to combat lets say a Revenant Titan, and thusly using up your single LoW choice. A Primarch can be killed by many things which are not even classified as Lord of War (HQ characters / Avatar and Greater Daemons) as well as even Draigo. So we are saying with the new escalation rules; should we just stick Primarchs in as HQ choices for 2000pt games and thereby reclassifying them as HQs?

      Delete
    3. 2Khall Sithris:
      HH FAQ is on FW site. I refer to the very last entry in it. Here is the link:
      http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/Betrayal_FAQ_Errata_v.2.pdf

      2Drake Seta:
      Ah. Thank you for clarification, Drake. Yes, these HQs look scary enough even without D-strength weapons.

      Delete
    4. Ah yes thats the FAQ from before Escalation was released. I suspect its very nearly null and void now. I think we will trial the primarchs as HQs for a while (cant really see it making any difference really) and see how it goes :)

      Delete