Hey all!
Originally I was going to post some pictures of one of my latest Raven Guard tactical squads that I have finished, but instead I would really like to discuss something that has been on my mind and giving me some food for thought - Mor Deythans. Primarily their use as a unit and effectiveness on the battlefield.
Now, I don't get a chance to game very often but I was lucky enough to meet up with the bunnies for a game last weekend and I was excited to get my freshly painted legion into my 2nd game (I know!!) of 7th Edition. Most of the legion performed as expected but I was tremendously underwhelmed by my snipers. I set them up, quite heroically, on the tallest walkway of the battlefield, almost smack centre of my deployment zone. I was thinking 'from here they can pick off some important targets....mwhahaha!' What actually happened left me wondering 'where does this units value actually come from?'
The key problem I think is the sniper rifle. A more underwhelming weapon has never existed in any realm of past, present or future...I may as well have been unleashing kittens. What kind of sniper rifle has 36" range?! I mean come on! Lol. The stopping power isn't much better - across 2 turns (including one round of using the special rule 'fatal blow') I failed to separate a single marine from his brain-pan. Whereas, 5 autocannons managed to shred up my shadowy hunters quite severely (cheers Drake!) at 48". I get it, autocannons are high output and velocity shells. More output, higher strength and better range for cheaper points? Why would you ever take sniper rifles?
So, on the way home they were on my mind quite a bit of the 1hr 20minute journey. First I went down the the thought trail of 'I hate point systems, they encourage players to optimise their lists for the best builds and power' then I moved on to 'Jervis Johnson says the rules are really just guidelines. They are your toys play how you like,' to 'maybe I used them wrong,'. So really I want to ask you guys - what is good about the sniper rifle and how do you / would you field your Mor Deythan? I think that mine will be having a bit of disassembly and re-armed with combi weapons (maybe 3 plasma and 2 melta guns). They will be only 10pts more for the squad, more attractive for using the infiltrate special rule and have some decent ambushy firepower for a turn. We pride ourselves on playing fluffy on this blog but I am not prepared to pay decent points for a duck of a unit...
So what do you all think? Comment below and let me know!
Stay fluffy
Kaelo
I've built mine all with combi-flamers, and am looking at buying an Anvillus Dreadclaw for them. The synergy with Maun is wonderful. :-)
ReplyDeleteOooo what synergy? :)
DeleteWell, they'll pod in on turn 1 using Alvarex Maun's Nightfall-pattern Strato-Vox for increased accuracy (assuming you Infiltrate him in somewhere safe & hidden but forward enough to extend his 18" bubble nicely), then you unload 5-10 twin-linked rending flamers on your unsuspecting targets. Since flamers don't roll to hit, the twin-linked gives them re-roll to wound, which paired with rending... is pretty lethal, even if you only use five of them. :-) They may not survive long after... but they're the epitome of strike hard, strike fast, strike first. :-)
DeleteI use 2 squads of six with 2 plasma guns and 4 combi plasma each in Storm Eagles or just infiltrate them, that twin-linked once per game is perfect for an alpha strike
ReplyDeleteNot knowing anything about the raven guard mor dynath? Squads and what they do, my father and I have had good luck with our Ratlings, and scouts respectively. Mind you that has only been in friendly house games. With marines vs guard. Against someone who doesn't know the rules.
ReplyDeleteAt 2k, I use 2 squads of 6 each with 2 rockets and 4 combi-meltas. Infiltration with scout and first turn will get them into melta range. It works well as a flanking force, at least against 40k armies. That being said, not sure how well it would do against legion stuff with ceramite or flare shields. They are nasty in zone mortalis though...
ReplyDeleteSniper rifles don't have pinning anymore either. Scouts and ratlings work well because 10 sniper rifles is about 120 points, but mor deythan cost more than that for the base 5 man squad.
I love the Mor Deythan models so much that even though I do not collect Raven Guard I still have a squad of them with sniper rifles.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I do agree that with the minuscule point difference between taking a combi-weapon and taking a sniper rifle, it really is hard to see any reason to take the sniper. With both scout and infiltrator almost any of the combi-weapons would do so much more damage (depending on the opponent's army of course).
I haven't fielded my Mor Deythan yet, so I have no frame of reference for how the sniper rifles are, however I could imagine they could be good in the right scenario (high up on, aiming on open ground, against a foot slugger army), however even in these cases I feel like combi-weapon would still be the far superior choice.
Keeping all that in mind, I prefer building my army around what I want in it rather than what actually would wreck the most havoc upon my opponent. That is probably why I have gone with the snipers. They are so darn cool and fairly unique.
As a little side note; I don't think it is the point system that forces people to take what is the most efficient. I haven't played AOS, but my understanding of it was that removing the points just made it worse. Correct me if I am wrong.
Having no points frees up the chance to take what you want. The rule of cool works better. I think it is mentality of gamers that necessitates points.
DeleteI agree with you completely. How I would love a game where i could field just whatever I though was cool and esthetically pleasing without having to fear for the game being a complete roll over for my opponent.
DeleteBut to be fair, it is part collection hobby and part game, so I accept the fact that people want to win the game part like they would in any other game. I guess that it for the most part boils down to what side of the hobby you enjoy the most.
That is the most attractive thing about AoS for me. With no points all units become viable. With a bit of playing it is not difficult for sensible human beings to balance it themselves. Points are good for pick up and play games with strangers. If I was playing with mates I would 100% prefer balancing through discussion :)
DeleteWill have to give it a go sometime. I know some members of the bunnies are interested in that too.
I am not sure I would deem it "not difficult". I see a tendency for people to gain a sort of tunnel-vision for their respective armies, seeing them as "not that strong" or "not that good at all" even though they base it on some of the few weaknesses that even their strongest units might have.
DeleteOf course, when playing a game without points it is hopefully for the fun of it, thus at the end the winner and the loser should leave the game with equal satisfaction, so what is a bit of unbalance among friends, right?
In a sense I can easily see such a balance discussion being a hard and possibly unbalancing endeavor, however at the end of the day I think it will still be worth it as you get to field what you want.
As I see it the point system is the best method of balancing the game, as who better to know how well a unit is doing than those who made (and hopefully tested) the unit in the first place. The fact that this sometimes fails is probably understandable, as it must be a hard job with all the scenarios to test out. I guess you see it in competitive video games as well. Balance does not come easy.
I really feel that the heart of the issue is with the Sniper Weapon profile.
ReplyDelete36" - Str X - AP 6 - Heavy 1,Sniper
Kaelo mentioned that 36" range is not befitting a long range weapon, while I agree on that point seeing the weapon in a bubble, but with units that can Infiltrate and Scout you should be closing that 12" distance to have shots first turn, if you don't then you're doing it wrong.
Next point the X Strength, doesn't really matter seeing as you have the Sniper Rule and are Hitting on a 4+ Regardless with 6s as Precision Shots and then AP 2 on 6s to Wound.
The fact is Sniper weapons lost Pinning and Rending in 7th. They should Absolutly still cause Pinning. If they still cause Pinning then you have a fairly effective and simple way of Holding enemy units or routing them.
Kinda Meh but,When they shoot at vehicles, they now have S4. Idk why you would but theres that.
What they should do is, if the Mor Deythan are the Best Snipers of Space Marines, Give them all Precision Shots when using Sniper Rifles. That will make them a little better. Or give them a Special Ammo, like the Vindicare Assassin.
Not on topic, but can you confirm whether or not the shoulder pads are separate parts? I love the poses of these guys and would like to use them in my planned recon squads
ReplyDeleteSadly they are not separate.
DeleteMy buddy uses them as suicide squads with combo-flamers. Infiltrate/Scout, use "Fatal Blow", and feel the burn.
ReplyDeleteHe once managed to fry a full squad of Terminators once with Combi-Flamer Mor Deythan. It was nasty.
They look great!
ReplyDeleteMy best pal usualy uses a squad of 10 with combi-plasmaguns in a RH1N0 or a Darkwing.
I hate them, when they do that....
Yeah I can imagine. I am not in to that sort of 'WAAC' mentality though. The rule should be:
DeletePlan a list for your opponent to have fun fighting. Not:
I must do the most disgraceful unit possible.
And that is where my problem lays; the models are not even slightly worth the points that they cost, so I have to re-arm and redistribute from a unit to make them useful.
But also restrict them so they aren't horrendous to fight against. A change to sniper rifle rules may be in order.
DeleteI think a change to the gun they have would be good! They look awesome with the rifles, perhaps we should tweak the rules!
DeleteÄhm....
DeleteHe hates my Mars-Collossus-Bombard and my Macrocarid Explorator too....
Our games escalate every time quickly into a giant clusterfeth, that scares everybody else! None of us two would do something like that to anybody else, as long as he don`t asks for it! We are just two crazy guys, who are having fun in their own way, I suppose...
I don't play Raven gaurd but play sons of Horus. I use a recon squad with my master of signal. I infiltrate then somewhere high so that the master if signal always has line of sight or does 90% of it. For the rest of the game after 1st time I give the recon marines BS 5. I don't know if this is the best way to do it but it means that you can set them up away from your oponants big Killy squad.
ReplyDeleteThe Mor Deythan come with BS5 as standard. How well do your recon squad fair in battle? I am really interested :)
DeleteQuite well. I usually run them as snipers. Fire them before the rest of the army, hope for precision and then reneging to stop those artificer saw sergeants from ranking the wounds. Also with 36" range you can hit most of the board with them.
DeleteThe one place in 30k where sniper rifles really pay off is against mechanicum, as the str x is important for ignoring their incredible toughness. A squad of assassins with combi weapons also really works well as a headhunting squad.
ReplyDeleteMarines should have the equivalent of a Barret 50cal. Massive range. Massive stopping power. Light vehicles should be scared, not just infantry. They currently have a 0.22 rifle...
ReplyDeleteHaha! I completely agree. One of my favourite parts of the hobby is tweaking rules so I can see it entering the agenda :)
DeleteMaybe like Against Vehicles, instead of AP2 on a 6 it gains Armorbane?
DeleteOr just make it strength 6/7, AP2, and range 48" which makes them a fearsome weapon. Maybe a increase chance to hit due to scopes etc. I would like people to fear them, including primachs. In WW2 whole regiments of artillery would blow crap out of areas to spook or kill a sniper. In 40k, it's almost not worth shooting at them unless there's nothing else...
DeleteAs long as you're not spamming them I think it's perfectly fine to heavily arm them. The Shadow Masters short story has a squad of four armed with two missile launchers and two plasma guns.
ReplyDeleteSniper rifles are good for forcing pinning checks on Orks, which have the potential to cause additional casualties through Mob Rule which is stupid, but okay.
ReplyDeleteIn the retribution rule book there is a scenario where its like an infiltrating type scenerio where any type of weapon except weapons with the sniper rule will raise 1 klaxon when they're fired, and you're only allowed if i remember right 20 klaxons before you lose. That is if you're the one infiltrating. In this scenario sniper rifles are VERY nice.
ReplyDelete